Legasov: To Belorussia, one part, and the other went to Ukraine but in the other direction. But caesium and strontium, these emissions, they did spread to large areas. This village had been constructed literally in a few months. But when Silayev replaced Shcherbina, and I was left, then the entire Commission, the first composition of it, left. valery legasov tapes transcript. By the characteristics of the explosion, by the glow, by the dispersion, it is clear that the system had a volumetric-detonation explosion. Just think about it; we have a dozen such reactors, the Americans have 90 of them, the British have 40 and the French have 60. This colossal task was organized; even now it is hard to imagine how. But when they began their work, they constantly ran into obstacles that were not shown in the drawings. He praised nuclear energy, praised himself, praised his own Ministry, and said in passing, at Chernobyl, we have had a signal. But what caused the good spirits was the way the people had been working; how quickly they responded to our requests, how quickly various engineering scenarios were evaluated. Sometimes, I even think that an event of this magnitude could have had a special television and newspaper section consisting of two parts. What he is as a person and why he was in shock there but there, he was an incapacitated man. New approaches were not welcomed. This kind of equipment was not available at the time. The upper reactor plate (nicknamed Yelena) that hermetized the reactor, was in an almost vertical position, slightly off kilter. When the first experiments in 1982 and 1983 showed that during a coastdown, the turbine does not maintain the necessary electrotechnical parameters to serve the stations own needs, nobody even thought about solving this problem from the other side, more precisely, reducing the time needed for the backup diesel generators to start and output at the required levels. For example, firstly, per the thinking of the Government Commission, there was an option to not do anything and let the graphite burn. This harmonious work of the researchers and the designers, in the end, led to a reliable construction. And so, it's not about the operators . They, however, took a minimal number of items because they were hoping that the evacuation was temporary . The second group of specialists, who was working under the instruction of Lev Dmitrievich Ryabev, consisted of radiation institute staff of Ministry of Medium Machinebuilding, was measuring the activity only in some hydro physical points around the station. He regularly found proper solutions when one or the other difficult situation arose. Eugeny Petrovich Razantzev took on this task in cooperation with helicopter pilots. This share must be maintained in order to develop these energy sources but it cannot be the basis of energy [planning]. As soon as we start to actively use the Kansk-Achinsk basin, we will start to saturate our own lungs with radioactive dust along the roads on which this coal is shipped and also when we burn it. Adamovich: I will note all this down. Should the fuel get there, it would contaminate a considerable part of water in Ukraine. These are the three nuclear stations. And this issue turned out to be principle. He exposes scary things towards the end.Our Goal:The original tapes are unfortunately not available, but there are original Russian transcripts. First - carefully studying the available information. However, the technological support for this complex cycle is outdated. Under the mandatory condition of the most rigorous compliance with all regulations and such. That is why they came to personally sort these matters out at the location. [7] Legasov was impressed by the operation of the KGB in the area but considered the Civil Defence group to be in shambles. They continued until somewhere between the 12th and 15th of May, with the main drops ending, as I have said, on the 2nd of May. In case of another situation, another team will assemble and so on. That is idle talk; even though it is so very widespread. Since the Soviet Union entered the foreign market and started constructing the first nuclear power plant for a foreign country, for Finland. Since the emergency protection system consists of 211 rods that are lowered, they say that they have 211 [protection] systems, not two; because when they remove these 211 rods, each of which can absorb neutrons when lowered into the reactor, they say that there are 211 [safety systems]. This means that it applies, in no less degree but more, to the chemical facilities where we still have such ugliness, much more than in the nuclear industry. For example, decisions of some sort were taken like the launch date of 1st and 2nd blocks, or sarcophagus completion time, or works on 5th or 6th blocks, or Pripyat conservation decisions. In case the Dniepers water became contaminated above the permissible concentrations, the city could be supplied using alternate sources of water. Do you see? [38], His wife Margarita wrote a considerable number of articles and books to preserve his legacy. There were a lot of inconsistencies between the part of the documentation that was at the station and the reality in various places of the station and underground facilities. Because we needed that information immediately, a first attempt to measure the gamma and neutron fields was made. What conversation was there to have? This means, lets say, one emergency protection system must be controlled by the operator automatically, semi-automatically or manually depending on the mode; and the second emergency protection system must work independently, whatever the circumstances of the operator may be, based only on an increase in parameters, say, neutron flow, power, temperature, etc and must automatically shut down the reactor. I feel sick thinking about exactly what is most likely to happen to us in the near future. And the next most likely is Leningrad; it will certainly explode. But, here, we must be honest with ourselves; that within the next 40-50 years, there will be nothing. So as to not limit the plans to introduce new nuclear power capacities and considering the overload of the machine building industry, create a parallel branch in nuclear energy that would allow building sufficiently powerful reactors without using the shell concept, without burdening the machine building industry with the complex technology for manufacturing highly reliable reactor shells that are required for VVER reactors. Their actions were rational. But my colleagues and I were faced with the task of what to do next? As I already said, the RBMK device is not easy to operate because instabilities, that are possible in principle, frequently occur in its working modes and this makes having simulators near every RBMK device more important. For instance, did a one-day delay in taking action have any effect at all? I fought against this project from May; an absolutely useless project. People were going to the shops and the city was living its semi-usual life. But nevertheless, the psychological shock and, say, because of that psychological shock, cardiovascular dystonia was found in a large number of experts and continues to be found up until now. Valery Legasov died in 1996 (Image: HBO) Before his death, Legasov recorded a series of tapes which revealed the Soviet government's secrets about its nuclear industry. No careful monitoring of the instrument, no attention to the condition of the equipment between planned preventive maintenance. Firstly, because it would melt and a sufficient amount of energy would be spent in melting it. It is clear that these localisation measures must be dynamic because it is economically and technically impossible to build containments over them. plant is called Chernobyl, located 18 kilometers from this regional city, very green, very pleasant, so quiet, rural. The philosophy itself contradicted what we had at hand. The system of a singular person being personally responsible for the quality of the devicewith all the facilities it was installed inwas absent. One, make the reactor maximally reliable. Luckily, as I was later told by the director of the Kola NPP Volkov Aleksander Petrovich, the personnel were properly trained and very cautious. An appropriate team was gathered at night and approximately within three to four hours, they departed to the site. Unfortunately, the place where the iron shot was kept had been affected by the initial outburst of radioactive particles and was contaminated, rendering it completely unusable. And the requirements they created were not ideal, not the ones that had to be created to make nuclear energy safer, but rather they were coming from the current situation that we had here, and from some Western experiences. It is only for myself. The journalists arrived, a variety of them, most of them very good journalists. Yes, he wasnt. That we will need nuclear sources in an ever-increasing amount, firstly due to economic considerations, resources and secondly, environmental. Legasov: So he presented a big report; he always made long reports. I think that Vladimir Konstantinovich should develop these points. But this is not for publication yet because they will take both your and my head off; mine first and then yours. "[28] In spring 1987, a vote was held by the Kurchatov Institute to their Scientific-Technical Council with Legasov standing at the insistence of his mentor Anatoly Alexandrov. Viktor Alekseevich, SIDORENKO, a former member of our Institute, corresponding member of the, USSR Academy of Sciences, was included in the composition of the, Governmental Commission. That the accident did not pose any threat to the people in Western Europe and other countries. was a good physicist, of course, but he also got into this story. What kind of conversation did you have with him? [1], The conference was a public relations triumph for the Soviets as it reassured Western governments and scientists that the disaster was being contained[26] and that the Soviets could competently manage nuclear power in the future. But since this philosophy of mandatory containment was not adopted by the leadership of nuclear energy of the time, the RBMK reactor did appear. It was already clear to us that people injured by radiation, except for those who worked at the Chernobyl station at the time of the accident, are expected to be unlikely; that the control of the population is thorough; that if the countries that came under the nuclear fallout from the accident took proper informational and sanitary measures, then there will be no real consequences to the health of the people. Why? Then, Shcherbina, after returning from there, smashed his deputation badge with a hammer before our own eyes. After creating the first nuclear facility, we then slowed down the development of the technology of their creation, the consideration of all the safety issues related to the operation of these devices, and later we started to rush. Secondly, install the maximum number of sensors that would ascertain the condition of reactor number 4. And quantitative estimates must be made for the processing and enrichment plants, similar to those that were made for the reactor. Legasov: No, we have 14 VVER devices without containments. Helicopter divisions were also incoming. On April 26th, 1986, a nuclear explosion at the Chernobyl power plant rocked the area near the Ukrainian town of Pripyat, spreading giant clouds of radioactive material across 77,000 square miles of land. Immediately after me, Aleksandr Grigorjevich Meshkov, First Deputy Minister of Medium Machine Building, entered the room, quickly stated that a Government commission had been formed to investigate the Chernobyl accident, and that I had been assigned to that commission. And not that they had any experience [to draw from]. They started to say that they turned the cooling on, turned this or that on. Thats why with Ivan Stepanovich Silaev, who by this time had replaced Scherbina, we decided to: first, get some information about the levels of water in the lower barboteur. We received many telegrams from abroad, by the way. The diagnostic wells worked continuously and measured the radioactivity of the groundwater, and if required, the service wells could be turned on to pump out the contaminated water. And the Government Commission itself remained in Pripyat. To make sure of this, I had to get into that APC and go near the reactor. This is my point of view but I dont know how this will turn out. I have not seen a single group in the Soviet Union that raised and considered these issues with any degree of competence. Comrade SOROKA was Deputy to the General, Prosecutor of the USSR and Fyodor Shcherbak, the head of one of the i, divisions of the State Security Committee, was included in the composition of the, Governmental Commission, and the Deputy Chairman of the CM of. He got into everything. And then the Atommash factory was specially built to make cases for such reactors. Also, research groups under which particularly a lot of work was done were led by Kulakov, Borovoi, for example) had toand this was their primary objectivethoroughly investigate the premises of reactor number 4. However, in whispers, all the operators, all the engineers and experts were saying that this reactor is very difficult to control. Legasov: But after the 2nd of May, there were traces of a glow a few times in some spots. And a large army [of journalists] appeared there. He took the leadership of the construction project in his hands. My first candidate thesis was proposed to me, to tackle the problem of such a gas phase reactor that would contain gaseous uranium hexachloride as fuel and such problems, namely the problem of interaction at high temperatures of uranium hexachloride with construction materials. Different techniques for the artificial absorption of radionuclides on surfaces were tested. And it was such an unforgettable scene as one drove up to Skazochniy. We decided to translate them to English. We didnt get precise information here, so we got into our cars as quickly as we could and set off for the power plant. This, roughly, is the structure according to which all the material should be prepared. One thousand buses were called from Kiev, the routes were prepared, and locations where the evacuees would be taken were determined. However, calculations showed that the time needed for the construction of the sarcophagus could be significantly reduced if the concrete domethe reliability of which was being questioned, whether the design would hold its weight is replaced by, so to speak, a pipe run. There were not enough of these devices for everyone who were involved in the work. Although the power plant is called Chernobyl Station, it is situated 18 kilometres away from this regional city. This was our first thing to worry about, however we were hoping that the large amounts of Boron (40 tons) that was dropped into the reactor would be more or less evenly mixed with the fuel and help prevent critical mass buildup. Before conducting the experiments, there were no simulations of possible situations, that is the situations were not walked throughwhat will happen if there is a protection malfunction; what will happen if the process does not execute as planned; how should the staff react in one situation or the other; can the reactor be left running when the steam supply to the turbine is stopped; and if this is done, what could happen; what will happen if the main circulation pumps are switched on. He and his associates showed great concern about the quality of the equipment that was supplied to the station. So the situation has only worsened. Because, in principle, with the correct configuration of graphite and with less volume inserted into the zone, this graphite inhibitor could, of course, hold the vapour coefficient within allowable quantities. The number of people staying at the site was increasing day by day because each group required new assistants, who came either with devices, or with documents, or with work tools that were needed to perform a task. leaders, specialists, or for the fact that somewhere there was a high traumatism, either for some financial omissions, or for some specific, technically inaccurate. First of all, it must be noted that this is an experiment that should not have been performed at a nuclear power plant, because the value of turbine coastdown at idle is something that should be measured on a special stand built by the designer of the turbine. [7] Legasov thought people worked together efficiently and this put them in good spirits. This, broadly, is the range of issues that I worked on professionally. There were a couple of thousand of such cars in the city. At the time of the birth of nuclear energy, everything was sensible, because it was a completely new field of science - nuclear physics, neutron physics. It took away the heat so that the uranium wont melt. Why? This faculty trained specialists, mainly researchers, who were to work in the field of nuclear industry, that is, be able to separate isotopes, to work with radioactive substances, to extract uranium from the ore, bring it to the needed condition, make nuclear fuel from it, to process nuclear fuel that had been removed from the reactor having a strong radioactivity component, to extract useful products from it as well as the dangerous and hazardous parts, to be able to compact them, bury them so that they would not harm humans, and use parts of radioactive resources for the national economy, medicine maybe. We got into the cars and set off. Starting from the entrance to the station, its external signage, personnel training. [7], I was interested in comparing the real dangers, the real threats that nuclear energy carries to the threats of other energy systems. The initial organization of clear and reliable communication; this was done practically within a day. In addition, the intermittent changes in the composition of the GC led to a constantly changing plan of work. Because information came out in separate blocks. The Legasov Tapes Featured August 16, 2019 Tape 1 side A Aym96/Wikimedia In all my life, it never occurred to me that I would have to start this part of my life. We dropped another 80 tonnes of lead; that was the last large drop. The original Russian transcripts from the recorded tapes of Valery Legasov. I will end here all my manipulations with you, so to saythere is a lot of talk about itthe logic, so the logic behind the decisions that were made is clear to you. In particular, the corresponding member of the USSR Academy of Sciences Viktor Alekseyevich Sidorenko in his doctoral thesis, and later in his book based on this doctoral thesis, was proving by all means available to him at the time, that containments were necessary. But since Sidorenko was put in charge of this laboratory (the whole department), everything was routed towards developing documents, procedures and standards to make things better on existing nuclear power stations. Legasov was 51 years old. This showed our inexperience, of some sort organisational, I would say. Because other such unpleasant things like plutonium, as we established, had a distribution radius of 12 kilometres. The water overheats; the pressure is 170 atm. It was an integral device that had to be placed into the belly of the wrecked 4th block and would have provided continuous information about the temperature there, about radiation fields and some other parameters. After the medics signed, it was announced that the city is being evacuated. Sidorenko had to investigate the causes of the accident and I had- to finish the localization work on reactor number 4. I remember how during the war there were two types of daily communications which were published in our newspapers or TASS reports: where we recaptured German-occupied points, where we retreated, where we took a large number of prisoners, where we suffered a partial defeat. For this reason, in VVER reactors, power is limited by the size of the reactor vessel but in RBMK reactors, power is not limited by anything. I, of course, moved around in this circle, choosing my task. And we even thought that it would partially evaporate, cool down in the higher area and then flow down again. Now, Ponomaryov-Stepnoi became the first deputy director of nuclear energy who dealt with reactor construction. The first way is to briefly, clearly and plainly explain that, from the very beginning, the Soviet Union did not conceal anything. This is why I have copied the entire text to this page and edited it so a "clean" version is available. Neither would there be 14 VVER devices naked, covered by nothing. By the way, there are no international rules even now. The relevant passages in Higginbotham's 'Midnight in Chernobyl' with respect to the Vienna Conference say:. I invited two or three experienced journalists to it. The following decisions were taken. All in all, the accommodation issues had been solved. [5] Malicious rumors began to be circulated such as the accusation of being an alcoholic, over-ambitious or to blame for the Chernobyl disaster. It is necessary to talk about the management scheme for the process of liquidation, that is, about the separation of functions. The total amount of words for the first tape is around 8000 words, but I might eliminate some of the text. Legasov: Feinberg S.M. But I get only 180 and for me, a bonus of 100 roubles is important. Figure out, together with the Energy Commission headed by Anatoly Petrovich, what percentage of energy should be in the form of nuclear energy in a given task. If the temperature is high, it melts and absorbs heat. [7] At Tomsk Polytechnic University, he started researching gaseous uranium hexachloride in a gaseous fission reactor. This is when Aleksander Petrovich and Vyacheslav Pavlovich Volkov, director of the Kola and then the Zaporozhye nuclear power stations, recently told me about an episode, where a group of his comrades visited the Kola station, and witnessed, in his opinion, a complete disorder in the organisation of the technical process. Rarely have any of us really spoken frankly and accurate about this. And we have experienced personnel. Here I need to pay tribute to comrade Schekalov, the expert from the Institute of Nuclear Energy, and also to the experts from the Ukrainian (Kiev) Institute of Nuclear Research, who made great efforts to find the appropriate paths, put in the necessary sensors, and stretch cables to them. Legasov: Armen Artavazdovich, a good man. Today, our measures are planned; such and such have been implemented and such and such issues worry us. In practice, this then turned out to be the best decision, as all the wells had been built and the measuring wells showed that there was practically no penetration of contaminated water into the ground. Terrible working conditions. And doctors have never found any trace of lead in the people who were directly working there. It contains the above introduction and the original translation of the text, which I will replace with my revised version when I finish it. But with the illness of Aleksander Sergeyevich Kochinov and after the subsequent events, everything has changed. Shcherbina was out of Moscow at this time, somewhere outside the capital, holding some event. I was filled with trust and respect for him Valery Alekseevich himself flew over the reactor by helicopter 5-6 times a day. When the fire ended, when we established that the surface temperature, that was monitored, is not higher than 300 degrees Celsius, all actions targeted towards eliminating the fire itself and its spread ended. Another thing. Valery Legassov transcriptions from his tapes, 100% found this document useful, Mark this document as useful, 0% found this document not useful, Mark this document as not useful, Save Valery Legassov transcriptions For Later, Recording number 1 of 5 of Valery Legasov, Still, all my life I did not think that I would have to go to such, at least the age, in, which I am now, having just experienced my fiftieth birthday, to essentially refer, to a memoir part of something, a part of a tragic, in many ways confused and, But there have been such events, such a scale and such participation of. driver brought my wife, as we agreed, with her work, we had to dock there, somehow solve some of our family problems, which, of, I told her briefly that I was going on a business trip, the situation was unclear, for. But they required considerable machine-building capacities to build the case that the Soviet Union did not have. They often practised there. The iron would oxidize and the temperatures would rise further still. So that there is an understanding. So I just say what Im afraid of, and I already am afraid. It was used for such cases when, say, key decisions were taken like whether to make the RBMK 1500, or whether to introduce a heat exchange intensifier to this reactor. So after it became clear that casualties of this accident were like hundreds of people, while tens were heavily injured and all the rest were curable - our main problem was to make sure the population safety around the Dnieper basin. But from my point of view, why I wasnt an active supporter of this idea or even active opposer of it is because these jobs would require a lot of machinery to be concentrated in the zone. There were less than 10 rem. These robots have played a huge role even today because many interesting things have been discovered with their help regarding the questions related to the nature and consequences of the accident. This first meeting was simple and straightforward. Adamovich: But these hazardous [Unclear]. During the first stages, this was the most effective way where by using ordinary vehicles but with proper crew protection, it became possible to collect and dispose of the most contaminated debris, the most dangerous contaminations. Such protective dams were built and had a positive effect. The information came as a code. This roughly is how things were. And, of course, it must be said that the positive reactivity coefficient in this device turned out to be unexpected for the physicists. And this value is already quite controllable and allows, with proper fast protection devices, to manage any processes. It seemed to them that they already understood everything in the scientific arena. [28], Some in the scientific community were still displeased by Legasov and his legacy. [17] In 1981, he became a full member of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR, in the Department of Physical Chemistry and Technology of Inorganic Materials. Since we were late by 10 years in the development of nuclear energy, Adamovich: [CLARIFICATION ON FEINBERG'S LAST NAME]. Around October 1986, the situation regarding work distribution was very clear. Basically, it was uncomfortable for him to refuse this money, but at the same time, the cash form of the prize itself did not really please him. By the way, looking back, I want to say once again that the question of how positive reactivity was added is a matter of discussion. Because even the best figures today show that, in solar energy, the cost of human labour will be a 100 times more for a unit of power, and the cost of materials a 150 times more, than coal and nuclear power plants. Legasov: Uranium yes, the fuel itself. 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