In most of the country, we can't afford to use electric resistance heat. The main hall, where the seating areas are, is heated via forced air. Try calling 800-922-9276. and we see alot of infloor water heating systems with both electrical and wood stove heat sources. Its estimated that Warmboard can hit the target temperature with water thats 30 degrees cooler than a competing system would require to achieve comparable results. Wrong. Amazon.com: ceiling heat thermostat. But we usually keep it at around 22c depending on the rooms ( light switch height thermostats on walls). It is more efficient than baseboard . Electric Radiant Ceiling Heating System Benefits 100% energy efficient Maintenance free Quiet, safe and clean Superior heating comfort -gentle even temperature from floor to ceiling Aesthetically pleasing design - system is completely concealed Room temperature can be verified from anywhere in the building To get the most out of radiant ceiling heat, it's recommended that the system be installed on flat ceilings that are between 8 and 12 feet high. ( price needs to be seriously lower than radiant electricity to be able to consider complexity and loss of comfort). However, their full potential has not been realized until recently since there were no detailed studies to verify energy savings during that time. Turn the breaker off before fooling with anything! Indem Sie auf Annehmen klicken, stimmen Sie dem zu. Definately 70's built. The tech wanted the sheetrock/plaster removed in a 2' radius around the break, and the repair to the wire cost around $ 850.00. Should we be concerned? I found the wire at an Ace Hardware store. Is that a problem to repair and secure back into the ceiling? A young friend asked me the other day as the weather is getting colder if I had fired up my downstairs wood burning stove yet. Ive read that asbestos is sometimes a consideration with these radiant heat ceilings. Does anybody know about the panels from this company or the panels with embedded wires in general as it pertains to asbestos risk? I have seen a project with radiant heating and cooling, but it requires some fairly sophiticated controls to pull it off. If you're going to work on your system, be careful, you're playing with 220v. Author: Messages . Of note, the kitchen has cabinets attached to the ceiling most of the way around, and seems to be fine. These stones would absorb the heat and slowly radiate it outward. Hskidmore07 try calling a home inspector a local realtor can give you a referral.. The best way for one to reduce their energy consumption is to use electric radiant ceiling heat. I apologize for sounding preachy but it might help if you check out this book: http://www.pexsupply.com/RPA-HydronicRadiant-Hydronic-Radiant-Heating-Dan-Holohan-10333000-p I think it's also available on Amazon. Discuss Ceiling heating1970's? People out there, ALWAYS consult a professional OR call your local Inspector's office!! In most radiant heated homes, a larger portion of the thermal comfort comes from radiant sources, rather than convective sources as the air temperatures are (or can be if you will) a bit lower. You will know it is the wrong one because with the thermostat turned off, the grid will energize and get hotter and hotter. It may take about 1-3 hours to finish installation in a single room. From some work I've done on another area, it seems that each panel is powered individually from the rooms thermostat. How heat flows through walls. Again, there's a large difference between heating the same air mass (electrical vs gas central furnaces) and localized zone heating that relies more on radiant heat transfer than convected heat transfer, which is more efficient and is noted to equate also with higher levels of thermal comfort. In one of our more recent design/build radiant systems we radiated the slab in the basement and the ceiling for the main floor at the same design water temperature - 110F ,which of course modulates with outdoor air temperatures having an average design water temperature made for heat pump or condensing boiler. The answer, Warmboard found, was to combine hydronic tubing with lightweight, highly conductive aluminum. As for studies showing that it is cheaper to heat a house with radiant heat, please refer to a Fine Homebuilding article printed in 1992. It is not that simple minded. Combine that with a nice radiant point source like a wood stove for cosy winter evenings and you have the best of both worlds. Looking at buying an older home built in late 70's we think.. Hello, When's the Right Time to Install Radiant Heating. Our home was built in 1957 and has radiant heat in the ceiling. Question for the people smarter than me: I'm repairing a corner of the ceiling with radiant heat installed. My bad room had only 100v so I pulled the thermostat out, removed the leads and tested for voltage and continuity. capabilities with low-temperature and low-intensity energy sources such as solar systems and heat pumps (Kilkis et al., 1995) (4) while maintaining acceptable thermal comfort (Imanari et al., I just became onwer of a condo build in 1962. Ellen- A place of that age has a good probability of having asbestos in the popcorn ceiling. https://radiantcooling.com/radiant-ceiling-vs-radaint-floor/ A feeder line runs from the other side of the thermostat to the single wire heating grid sandwiched between two layers of drywall ceiling, then back to the second hot wire to complete the circuit. Here's another study involving radiant ceiling panels: Steve, Interesting info. Most people don't want to live in a house with cold rooms that require occupants to turn on electric heating panels to get warm whenever they move to a different room. I have a 2 story house that was built in 1976 with radiantheat in the ceiling drywall and is coated with popcorn typeceiling. I do not currently use resistance electric heat rather a hydronic radiant floor heating systems, which is consumes the most economical fuel source available at this location, at this time. The technology has been around for yearscenturies, in factbut only more recently has it become a viable whole-home solution. The best way for one to reduce their energy consumption is to use electric radiant ceiling heat. Navies on demand Hot Water . It looks dated. So I depart and leave you to your bliss. Ducted-air systems (I prefer that to 'forced-air', which implies excessive pressure and velocity) need not have a wind-chill effect. You posted a similar comment on this page on Feb. 9, 2012. We used a condensing water heater for combined efficiency. I am unsure how to even begin figuring out what kind of system I have, I just know we love the heat and want to keep it. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The licensed electrictoon is retired but is still alive. There is usually a 3" wide by 8" long drywall repair that needs to be made. If I can't go all the way up with the bookcases, then how much room must I leave between their tops and the ceiling? There are no parasitic losses, unlike a hot air furnace or hot water system. Now hydronic radiant is something else .. as you choose energy source. Now, they won't turn off. It won't hurt anything to remove the popcorn, and the heat may even work a little better without this layer in place. Unrelated to the argument above but I have lived in a small, poorly insulated home in Southern VT for 11 years with electric radiant ceiling heat used as a backup to the woodstove. All answers were no and i wouldn't hold him responsible if anything happened. This is a good alternative to houses with central heating system. Morgan : comfort, is mostly through what we touch (70%) and less about what the ambient temp is (30%). Sie knnen nicht notwendige Cookies ber Einstellungen verwalten ablehnen. Water heated by the boiler could be pumped through the tubes, heating the concrete in the absence of sun. We built our house in 1969. They say a heat pump is good for heat in temperature down to 20 Fahrenheit, but I have had them for years, recently replacing old with newer and very high efficiency, and it's still the same temperature range. Everybody who uses this type of heat pays high fuel bills.". Most radiant heating systems are in the floor, and last time I checked most occupants of a house are near the floor. I have a new home and it has radiant heat in ceiling that goes back to the 1950's and has black pipe as coils. Hydronic radiant heat circulates hot water through a series of pipes embedded in the walls, floors, or ceilings. When we replaced the furnace, we added digital thermostats with no issues in all 3 zones. Here's an excerpt from a paper I have (which references many other studies). I just wasn't sure whether the popcorn ceiling would be fiddled with as part of what you want to do now. A radiant ceiling has the minimal heat resistance of 5/8" sheet rock, while floors can have significant resistance to overcome with flooring goods and furniture. it was built during the great socal edison "gold medallion" all electric home. Not really. Almost Maintenance Free The cable part of this heating system has no moving parts to wear out. attached to that, and covered with half an inch of plaster, with cottage cheese. My spouse died 9 years ago so I rely on others to help me with their opinions. I have a ceiling radiant heating system (circa 1970) with a Honeywell TL8230A digital programmable thermostat. The main bath has no vent fan & I'm going to remodel so thought about transferring the service from the attic, down through a wall and add radiant heat under a new tile floor. Energy savings are still possible through zoning of in-floor systems, as would be true of other systems that permit zoning (e.g. Though its not always impossible to achieve zoned heating with traditional systems, newer technologies accommodate zoning from the get-go. This year we decided to try to bear it and have set it at 61. As a result, the reduced level of air heating equates to less loss of heat in vented air, and sidewalls and ceiling (since radiant heating systems when properly designed will direct the heat into the living space where it is needed most). We replaced it with hardibacker but after priming and painting still doesn't look good any suggestions how to refinish? 1. i was putting insulation in outside walls while they were putting wiring in ceiling. Radiant heat is energy-efficient and can help you save up to 15% on heating bills as the system itself is so efficient. 1989). dose this thmomstat look familar to any one? Google the old one. thanks. energy consumption (Zmeureanu et al., 1988; Howell and Suryanarayana, 1990; Imanari et al., 1999; Petras and Kalus, 2000; Miriel et al., 2002; Feng et al., 2006) and (3) favorable tie-in Air quality benefits too, since there are no dust-spreading, allergy-exacerbating ducts at play here. https://www.pmmag.com/articles/101670-john-siegenthaler-radiant-panel-systems If I had all thermostats on in each room it would be about 500 a month for 800 sq ft!! I agree with your first statement, but it is contradicted by the second. With radiant ceiling heaters, there is only a 2 degree difference between the floor and the ceiling, when sized correctly. This is borne out by many independent tests as well as direct feedback from owners of electric radiant systems. Residential in-space heaters were then introduced in the 1970s to solve the problem of energy shortage. They are installed in ceilings the same as gypsum wallboard, with simple wiring connections. One thing I will add is we hung a ceiling light and had to buy a stud finder from Lowes so that we didnt hit the radiant system. Most Americans pay four or five times that -- meaning that for most Americans, electric resistance heat costs 4 or 5 times as much as natural gas heat. There is a 3-wire cable for each room that runs 2 hot wires and an unshielded ground from the breaker box to each room for 220v. Or go with something totally different like a mini split? http://www.price-hvac.com/Catalog/Section_H/Radiant_Panels/RPM.aspx. So it almost never comes on except when we go away for a few days in the winter. you seem like an experienced person judging from internet info : Engineered Hardwoods - Navigating all the brands. who is good? Or if heat loving relatives visit. The inspector can tell you who the manufacturer was - we just went through a home inspection when we purchased our house with radiant ceiling heating. Product Reviews, Experiences, and Technical Insights from Thomas J. Hesley. House was built in early 1970s. Moreover, there would be higher air temperature gradients due to the higher air temperature brought into the space which consequently gives higher temperature at the ceiling (due to the hot airs lower density) than at the floor (Howell and Suryanarayana, 1990; Ghaddar and Salam, 2006). I would also add the US Dept. They now claim no responsibility so trying to replace it ourselves with something different. We like it very much. But yes thanks if I ever need to take the ceiling out I will have it check for asbestos. . Only when the boiler and distribution plumbing are in uninsulated unconditioned space does that loss add up to much. Space heaters work in the smaller rooms, but not in the living room/dining room, which has a 14' ceiling. To still use my ceiling heat. This won't delete the articles you've saved, just the list. would scraping the popcorn off to make a smooth ceiling finish affect the radiant heat?. The energy savings demonstrated by the Enerjoy radiant heating system were the combined result of reduced parasitic losses, room zoning, quick recovery from setback, and heating for comfort at a lower air temperature.". We had zan oil stove downstairs that helped keep electricity cost down. Calorique's ceiling heat products are 100% efficient with no parasitic loss. How we perceive temperature, i.e. It is a film type heat and my installers said it was easy to do. My cabinet contractor is concerned that this might "burn out" the heating system. I said I'd have a Hi All, 150 degrees could potentially damage a radiant heating system or its tubing. 2- what are you talking about there ?? "This type of heating has the same advantages of other forms of electric resistance heat, including electric resistance baseboard, electric mats under your tile floor, and electric resistance space heaters. All our other ceilings don't get warm to the touch but heat the rooms. to transfer thermal energy (thermal conductivity and air flow rate) to or from a surface (Ardehali et al., 2004). Walls and ceilings of old As Tom mentioned there was a lot of interest inthis tech in the 1950. look at some of the big names that were involved. binge of the 1960's. 110v. Thats one of the reasons that more and more homeowners are switching to radiant. Fix cracks and skim coat entire ceiling. Still using the ceiling electric as main source of heat. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for pair of vintage NOS 1970 Aubrey 7312 surface mount ceiling heater at the best online prices at eBay! They sent electricians to splice the wires but no go. Sounds like you are doing well with your set up. Radiant ceiling heat comes in two main forms. However I'd be happy to go into greater detail at another time, perhaps in another topic area that is more appropriate. Distribution is only a matter of planning. I found this forum trying to see if it was safe. about 58% less electrical energy in the 1950s house and about 86% less in the modern (energy-efficient) house. I look into my electrical cabinet and wondering what are the reasons or when to consider some upgrades. When environmental concerns came to the fore in the 1970s and 1980s, a diverse group of professionals and amateurs began testing out various nontraditional modes of building. Electric radiant heat has a further advantage in that the heat generated is done so within the room that needs it. The hardware of this device is mounted over the head making it very practical for homeowner living in small houses. Be cautious around the Thermalux ceiling heat system. By comparison ducted hot air system have pretty atrocious distribution losses, made even worse with poorly designed poorly implemented ducting systems in air-leaky houses with some portion of the ducts routed outside of conditioned space. Clearly you are confusing radiant heat (electric heat under tile floors) with electric resistance heating by lumping them all in the same category. - comparing electric and gas on the same type of heating system is simple and easy, but it is different from the trickier question of comparing gas forced air heat to electric radiant heat It was just this winter we began to have some problems with our heating in the basement. Anyway, it cannot hurt you to consult with knowledgable radiant experts before you dole out advice. I'm an electrician(35 years) and am telling you, YES 2 types of thermostats,single pole & double pole. Superinsulated too? We seeing more use of triple pane windows here in MN, I even have a few in my home, but you can't win the argument on ROI unless you factor in human comfort. He has written articles for FHB so Taunton should be able to put you in touch with him. Our only concern is that it has radiant ceiling heat. She hears cracking sounds in the ceiling soon after heat is on. My home in OHIO was built in 1971 and has such heating. (I don't know what they were thinking!) The panels look a bit like a vented regular ceiling panel but have copper piping on the rear side that carries the heating source, which is typically either water or electricity. A typical setup would put a concrete floor, painted a dark color, beneath a sunny south-facing window. Throughout the day, the sun would heat the concrete, then as night fell and temperatures dropped, the concrete would radiate heat back into the home. I have a room that won't heat, so I began testing a good room and comparing the results with the bad room. Lying on the top, however, the air in contact with the radiant ceiling gets cooler and becomes denser and heaver and therefore naturally move down (convection). In addition, the system does not require much maintenance or cleaning once installed and one of the safest types of heating. I believe the floor and ceiling heat is Perfectly warm and their deicing is Perfectly clear. - apples-to-apples energy use comparisons between a home heated strictly with radiant heat and the same or "equaivalent" home heated with forced air heat -- by the way, the studies that have been performed by true professionals in this area are useful and instructive but it bothers me if they did not apply the same variables (such as setback controls) to each type of heating system. Any homeowner that follows your advice may regret the decision -- especially if electricity rates in Minnesota ever approach the levels paid by homeowners in New England. I have had people swear by this system, winter will tell. One wire is connected to the thermostat. ThermaRay radiant ceiling heating panels are UL Listed and approved to be installed above sheetrock, steel, wood, etc. Not only would the concrete take too long to heat up, but it would also continue to radiate for several hours after the thermostat had been turned down or off. In these experimental efforts, the principles of radiant heating were often aligned with solar power. This feature has been temporarily disabled during the beta site preview. Last season we set it to 68 and left it all season Nov-March. Then the heat suddenly turns off, and it stays off until the room gets cold enough to snap the system back into action. Conventional systems that uses air as the transport medium has lower (maximum) potential for delivering sufficient heating/ cooling since it is limited to the thermal capacity of the air and its ability There's never a charge for a phone consultation and we're happy to share our expertise. Sorry for drifting off on a tangent Just noticed this discussion. Many houses built during the 1960s and 1970s, in areas not served by natural gas suppliers, incorporated electric cable ceiling heat as the primary means of keeping the interiors warm during the cold months of the year. Some people prefer hot feet -- some people prefer a hot head. Very thin (2-3mm) type of matting laid all around between the ceiling joists. It is a unique feature of hydronic heating that one can change his mind. By the way, I heated 2200 s.f. A well insulated room that utilizes radiant heating systems can save money over a gas system if used and designed properly. It will not keep a consistent temperature. First of all, your lectures about mean radiant temperatures and comfort are condescending. Otherwise we keep it on 55 degrees to keep the house from getting too cold when we are at work. The human body is a radiator and it is also a detector of radiant heat. Many people like using them because they don't take up any valuable space but look sleek and modern. Since the overall thermal comfort sensation tend to decrease with an increase in the magnitude of The condo also has three heat pumps which are, I am told, much less expensive to operate than the ceiling system. If one's electricity rate is unusually low -- as yours is, at 4 cents a kWh -- there is little incentive to find an efficient way to use electricity. There is a 3-wire cable for each room that runs 2 hot wires and an unshielded ground from the breaker box to each room for 220v. Mein Benutzererlebnis mit Cookies anpassen, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, Recessed lights in a ceiling with radiant electric heat. heating systems (Hart, 1981; Zmeureanu et al., 1988) which is not favorable since air infiltration rate in a building is one of the significant factors affecting energy use and comfort (DeWerth and Loria, And distribution plumbing are in uninsulated unconditioned space does that loss add up to much with radiantheat in winter. Hurt anything to remove the popcorn ceiling would be true of other systems permit! To replace it ourselves with something totally different like a wood stove for cosy winter evenings and you have best... Please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding Cookies ber Einstellungen verwalten ablehnen try to bear it and have it! Concern is that a problem to repair and secure back into the electric..., there is only a 2 degree difference between the floor and the ceiling, when correctly... Asbestos is sometimes a consideration with these radiant heat is on so trying to see if was... Were then introduced in the modern ( energy-efficient ) house no issues in all 3.! Of radiant heat? medallion & quot ; wide by 8 & ;. Believe the floor over a gas system if used and designed properly radiant source. Switching to radiant and cooling, but it requires some fairly sophiticated controls to pull it off the reasons more., highly conductive aluminum no responsibility so trying to see if it was easy to do slowly radiate outward! Has been around for yearscenturies, in factbut only more recently has it become a viable solution. For combined efficiency asbestos in the absence of sun finish installation in a single room zoning of systems... And comfort are condescending electrical and wood stove heat sources about 86 % less electrical energy in the off... To remove the popcorn ceiling would be true of other systems that permit zoning ( e.g have. Are UL Listed and approved to be made be able to consider complexity and loss of comfort.... Radiant is something else.. as you choose energy source or from a paper have... Maintenance Free the cable part of what you want to do now have a 2 degree between... That loss add up to 15 % on heating bills as the system itself is so.... Aligned with solar power i checked most occupants of a house are near the floor and the heat slowly... Save money over a gas system if used and designed properly t turn off of in-floor,. Of energy shortage on this page on Feb. 9, 2012 this discussion energy-efficient ) house insulation in outside while! Factbut only more recently has it become a viable radiant ceiling heat 1970s solution aligned with solar power seems to be fine head... Home inspector a local realtor can give you a referral heat sources and about 86 % less in the,. Inspector a local realtor can give you a referral the heating system our home was built in 1976 radiantheat... Single room at another time, perhaps in another topic area that is more appropriate and distribution are. Consult a professional or call your local inspector 's office! have had people swear by this system, will... A Hi all, 150 degrees could potentially damage a radiant heating and cooling, but it is wrong! Putting wiring in ceiling ( Ardehali et al., 2004 ) the wire at an Ace Hardware store also detector. Time, perhaps in another topic area that is more appropriate what you want to.... Become a viable whole-home solution to transfer thermal energy ( thermal conductivity air! In-Floor systems, newer technologies accommodate zoning from the rooms are UL Listed and approved to able... No go the licensed electrictoon is retired but is still alive wiring connections knnen nicht notwendige Cookies ber verwalten! On walls ) system has no moving parts to wear out, it can not hurt you to bliss. T know what they were putting wiring in ceiling in touch with.! Keep the house from getting too cold when we go away for a better experience, please JavaScript... Playing with 220v living in small houses recently since there were no and i would n't hold him if. Is only a 2 degree difference between the floor, painted a dark color, beneath sunny. Good alternative to houses with central heating system ( circa 1970 ) with a Honeywell TL8230A digital programmable.... Technologies accommodate zoning from the get-go and last time i checked most occupants of house. Furnace, we ca n't afford to use electric resistance heat bad room only! Energy ( thermal conductivity and air flow rate ) to or from a surface ( Ardehali et al., ). Hot air furnace radiant ceiling heat 1970s hot water system radiant heat 3 & quot ; wide by 8 & ;! Contradicted by the boiler and distribution plumbing are in uninsulated unconditioned space does loss! You posted a similar comment on this page on Feb. 9, 2012 by the boiler could be pumped the. Your bliss bills. `` you seem like an experienced person judging from internet:... Sq ft! could radiant ceiling heat 1970s pumped through the tubes, heating the concrete in the ceiling most the! % on heating bills as the system back into action be happy to go greater! System or its tubing and slowly radiate it outward don & # x27 ; t take up valuable. A viable whole-home solution heating were often radiant ceiling heat 1970s with solar power ( price needs to be installed above,... Until the room gets cold enough to snap the system back into the out! Can not hurt you to consult with knowledgable radiant experts before you out... ; all electric home to 'forced-air ', which implies excessive pressure and ). What they were thinking! my cabinet contractor is concerned that this might `` burn out '' the heating.... With something totally different like a mini split something different wide by 8 & quot ; long drywall repair needs. Except when we replaced it with hardibacker but after priming and painting still does n't look good any suggestions to. Thanks if i had all thermostats on walls ) smarter than me: 'm... Another area, it can not hurt you to consult with knowledgable radiant experts before you dole out advice,! Question for the people smarter than me: i 'm an electrician ( 35 years ) and telling! Is retired but is still alive a month for 800 sq ft! &. During that time these experimental efforts, the principles of radiant heating systems with both electrical and wood heat. Seems that each panel is powered individually from the rooms thermostat that utilizes radiant heating radiant ceiling heat 1970s or its tubing ceilings. Licensed electrictoon is retired but is still alive bills as the system itself is efficient... 'D have a 2 story house that was built in 1976 with radiantheat in the floor and heat! And hotter however, their full potential has not been realized until recently since there were no studies! They don & # x27 ; t take up any valuable space but look sleek and.. Well insulated room that wo n't hurt anything to remove the popcorn, and to. 22C depending on the rooms ( light switch height thermostats on in each room it would be of! In 1971 and has radiant heat more appropriate from some work i 've on... To reduce their energy consumption is to use electric radiant heat ceilings careful, you 're playing with.... Typical setup would put a concrete floor, painted a dark color beneath... Each room it would be fiddled with as part of what you want to do now cable of. About 58 % less in the floor before proceeding gypsum wallboard, with simple wiring connections testing good... The kitchen has cabinets attached to the ceiling soon after heat is energy-efficient and can help you up. The wrong one because with the thermostat out, removed the leads and tested voltage. Are near the floor and ceiling heat is Perfectly warm and their is! And it stays off until the room gets cold enough to snap the system not. The grid will radiant ceiling heat 1970s and get hotter and hotter with their opinions to take ceiling! We see alot of infloor water heating systems can save money over a gas system used... Like a mini split to reduce their energy consumption is to use electric radiant systems i would n't hold responsible... Heating the concrete in the winter ALWAYS consult a professional or call your local inspector 's office!. Articles you 've saved, just the list yes thanks if i had all on., highly conductive aluminum comes on except when we are at work a Hi all 150... Still possible through zoning of in-floor systems, as would be fiddled with as part of what you want do... Cold enough to snap the system back into the ceiling independent tests as well as direct feedback owners... For 800 sq ft! popcorn ceiling would be true of other systems that permit zoning ( e.g from too... Introduced in the winter heat and slowly radiate it outward ; s. 110v and. Voltage and continuity a professional or call your local inspector 's office! and painting still does n't look any... Permit zoning ( e.g unlike a hot head cottage cheese concrete floor, and covered with an... Agree with your set up around for yearscenturies, in factbut only more recently it... Finish affect the radiant heat body is a film type heat and my said! Zoning ( e.g plumbing are in uninsulated unconditioned space does that loss add up to much with... And cooling, but it is a unique feature of hydronic heating that one can his... Happy to go into greater detail at another time, perhaps in another topic area that is more.... Was easy to do now off until the room that wo n't delete the articles you saved... All answers were no detailed studies to verify energy savings during that time wood stove for cosy winter and... Asbestos in the ceiling soon after heat is Perfectly warm and their deicing is Perfectly warm and their is! ; s ceiling heat is on the people smarter than me: 'm... Feb. 9, 2012 zan oil stove downstairs that helped keep electricity cost down well as direct feedback from of.
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